We’ve had the chance to sit down with Wowhead and Raider.IO at BlizzCon to interview Associate Game Director Paul Kubit and Senior Game Designer Kim Flack!
Interview Highlights
Here are the main highlights of the interview.
Exclusives
- All 3 new Paladin races will get a story questline.
- Astalor will not die. Kim rules out the “turns corrupt, we beat him back” theory.
- You infuse yourself with Azerite in Patch 12.2. It will affect how your character plays, no details given beyond that.
- Blizzard confirmed it’s Sargeras’s sword depicted in the image below. Midnight’s Patch 12.2 (Eclipse) will address it. Paul said it will become apparent during Eclipse that Blizzard hasn’t forgotten about the sword. Sargeras’s near-miss is framed as a potential testament to the Worldsoul’s own power.
Eclipse Raid
- The Eclipse raid will house 8 bosses with Xal’atath being the last.
- The encounter will be closer to the size of Dimensius rather than Hogger.
- There’s going to be a jellyfish boss encounter that’s “not just a big boy jellyfish.”
Transmog
- Armor-type unlock will go live in Patch 12.2.5, not 12.2.
- Class tier sets will stay locked to their class.
- Weapon proficiency restrictions remain, there will be no Warriors with wands.
Mythic+
- 1% and 5% will become spec-rated.
- The 0.1% cutoff remains overall rather than specialization-specific.
- 5% rewards exist, but they’re not detailed yet.
- Uldaman is dropping to four bosses in Mythic+.
Bonus Rolls
- Paul concedes the system creates uncomfortable tension, players feel pushed to the currency when they’d rather take gear.
- Floats delaying bonus rolls a few weeks into the season.
Other
- The new legendary is a caster dagger. Deliberately, not everyone will be able to use it.
- Don’t read too much into Ion’s “one-last-time” comment. The Last Titan won’t resolve every story.
- Talebound is a limited-time PvE-only roguelike event expected to last roughly as long as Plunderstorm.
- Deep Scar is going to host the Niffen, Drogbar, Troggs, and vermin, not the Loamm Niffen.
- Kit’hix lands mid-tier. No RWF and supports Mythic.
- Noctinax is an Azerite bat. Lair bosses are being targeted around the difficulty of bosses 1-3 of the new 12.2 raid.
- Wrath Remix is coming in Patch 12.2.7, it’s a Northrend send-off right before The Last Titan.
- The current plan is for Story Mode to remain one week behind in Season 3, though Blizzard says this isn’t set in stone.
- Upright Forsaken toggle is being raised with the art team by Paul.
- Kim teases that characters who followed Xal’atath down may return as allies.
Full Transcript
Please do keep in mind the interview transcript may contain some inaccuracies.
Sean: Ion, who’s typically very particular with what he says, mentioned in his opening remarks that “we will be helping Azeroth because they need us one last time.” How much should we read into that?
Paul: (Chuckle) Not too too much. And yes, Ion is always very cautious with his words. If I remember correctly, a lot of the stuff he said was we’re going to be going full gas from here on out. We’re sort of half-way through the middle chapter of the Worldsoul Saga. And so, we’ve set up a lot of pieces. We’re going to be knocking down dominoes. Now, it’s going to be like full action from here on out with Eclipse coming up to close out Midnight and then moving into Last Titan. And Last Titan’s going to resolve a bunch of Worldsoul Saga stories, but also it’s going to resolve just a bunch of World of Warcraft stories that we’ve been building up and telling for 20, 22 years, you know, by that point.
So there’s going to be a lot of stories coming to a close and then that brings us into sort of a new era of storytelling for World of Warcraft. So I would not expect The Last Titan to be finishing up every single little bit of story we have to tell. There’s still lots of really cool ideas, lots of really cool fantasy that’s going to take place in Azeroth well beyond the Worldsoul Saga.
Sean: Okay cool, cool.
Seli: Alrighty, then let’s jump straight into Talebound. Everybody seems really excited. A roguelike ARPG mode. We haven’t really had that in a while before. And obviously, it starts in 12.1.7 since you mention this is a temporary game mode. When do you expect it to end? And do you already have plans for how you would enhance the mode maybe in the future if you ever decide to bring it back?
Paul: Yeah, it’s a great question. We do plan this to be a sort of limited-time mode. Jury is still out on exactly when that ends. It won’t be around for forever. But if you think back to modes like Plunderstorm, this is a similar sort of duration for something like this, where it will be around for a while as long as it feels like appropriate and able for you to be able to reach all the goals that you have, get all the cool loot and collectibles for your War Band that you want, and then before it sunsets. Important distinction from Plunderstorm is that this is a PvE mode. This isn’t really any PvP aspects to this. You’re going to be fighting against monsters doing lots of double jumping and dodge rolling to make sure that you’re able to avoid the damage they do, because yeah, it is actually — from having played it myself — pretty intense. Some very difficult combat in there. So yeah, as far as that goes, we’re still going to sort of listen to the community and figure out when the right time is to move on from.
Seli: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Can we expect all of the different game modes, that you’ve now developed over the last couple of years, to return in more of like a seasonal fashion similar to maybe a Timewalking where the players know way ahead of time already when they will be coming back so they can plan around it?
Paul: Yeah, never say never for things like that. We always look at sort of how things land, how players play it, how we respond to it, and where the passions of the playerbase are, but also where the passions of the team are. If we see some really cool opportunities for something for Talebound to come back at some point in the future, add some new abilities, add some new monsters to fight against, and what have you. Then yeah, I think that would be something that would be really cool. I would personally play that. (Chuckles)
Seli: Same.
Squishei: Continuing on Talebound, what lessons did you learn from player behaviour in Plunderstorm with regards to rewards, and how did you apply this to Talebound?
Paul: It’s a great question as well. We’re just really happy to see people hop in and either engage fully and entirely with their account because they either enjoyed the mode or wanted to sort of clean out the shop. But also people who just sort of stopped in and was able to pick over things that were either for them or wanted to just, you know, check out the mode before they moved back to what they were passionate about. They were a Delver or PvPer or whatnot, and so moved back to that. We saw a broad range of folks kind of engaging with the reward system in a bunch of different ways. I wouldn’t expect it to change a whole lot more from that as we move to Talebound. You’re going to see people who are able to sort of dip their toe into Talebound and say like, “Okay cool. I need to be able to get this mount, this piece of decor, or what have you.” Versus others who are going to commit their life and soul into it, either because they love the game mode itself, or because they want to get all the cool stuff.
Squishei: Yeah, that’s awesome. You mentioned obviously, you’ve played it. What is your favourite part of Talebound?
Paul: For me, I like playing the Witch. I am sort of into that like Dark Fantasy and I feel like the witch embodies it the most. Also just like, throwing frogs at people is funny and like awesome. I sort of enjoy the levity side of things as well. As far as gameplay goes though, I’m a big sucker for roguelike choices. I love anytime that you have that moment where you sort of have the crossroads in front of you, where you’ve had an idea for how you’re going to start building this character and then you have two or three very different choices of: “if you take this,” then it’s taken my character in one way; “if you take this,” it’s taking you in the other. That moment, and the promise of that moment, sort of repeating from run to run is probably the biggest hallmark of this mode that I’m looking forward to.
Squishei: Have you played it, Kim?
Kim: I have. I have played it a little bit. I think my favourite part — this will sound weird — I liked dying, because you die a lot. So you might as well enjoy it. But the bosses are very difficult and I’m not personally great at this type of game. So every time I died, I’m like, “Okay, I understand a little bit more about how the mechanic works. Let’s go again, let’s run it back.”
And so, it just felt like a really addicting experience.
Sean: That sounds like there’s hope for me.
(Big Laughter from everyone)
Paul: Important to note: it’s roguelite, so there’s going to be progression even through death. Yeah, there’s hope for all of us.
Sean: That’s good, because I’m skill-lite.
(Laughter continues)
Awesome. So, opening ceremony yesterday, it was like announcement after announcement and then the deep dive that you did on stage… Amazing. We knew we were coming to talk to you guys today. Kim, I am a massive fan of your work, we spoke previously about Prey. You were the lead on Prey and obviously we got some big news affecting Prey. How do you feel as Astalor like your baby? How do you feel now with him shifting to our Delve nemesis? And, who’s replacing him as our Huntsmaster for Prey?
Kim: So, lots of things. Astalor is a communal baby. You know, he’s the baby of the entire Prey team. I’m just one contributor to the system. You know, massive props to the rest of the team on just really coming together to make one — what was the wording you used? I think it was uncomfortably sexual? Yes, absolutely.
So, as an Asta lover — that’s a phrase you can put on the ticket — I am just so excited for him being the nemesis of 12.2 because not only is he going to be the actual nemesis the way we’re used to from Nullaeus and Ky’veza and all these other great bosses that we fought recently. He’s going to be that.
He’s also going to be flavouring, you know, Delves throughout the season the same way that, you know, see currently in Curse of Ula’tek, we have little snakes everywhere, little anguish ghosts, you know, elementals everywhere. It’s going to be incredible. It’s going to be just very, very cool throughout.
In terms of who’s going to be replacing him, well. Safe to say, he is not actually going to die, but it’s not that simple. It’s also not as simple as, you know, he turns corrupt and we have to beat him back to his senses. It is a very cool, very surprising story. Like, I cannot be more excited for everyone to experience what that is. So, absolutely no spoilers about what it is that happens that leads us to fighting him as the nemesis. But I want everyone to go into this just excited as heck, because it is so cool. Don’t be worried, be so massively excited to figure out what’s going on with our boy Astalor. Because it could not be cooler.
Sean: Will we still be getting, like, him whispering to us? I’m asking for a friend. Like, just says we’re in the world.
Kim: (Chuckle) If you like those Astalor whispers, don’t worry. There will be plenty.
Sean: Excellent, excellent. I love it. Thank you so much. I’m very excited.
Seli: So in the 12.2 trailer, we saw Xal’atath accessing the world core and floating just a foot away from Azeroth’s worldsoul. This makes it seem like she already completed her goal in what we assume she tried to do. And so there must be something holding her back from finishing whatever she was planning to do. And how does that play into the champions of Azeroth ultimately being able to face her before she accomplishes those goals?
Paul: Yeah, without getting too much into spoilers, let’s look at the logo for Eclipse and the name Eclipse in general. You can sort of see what that looks like. It is a circle almost entirely covered in void with a glimmer of light poking out from the edge. And so, the worldsoul for sure is fighting back, despite being sort of held there in stasis with all this Titan machinery around her and Xal’atath going through the motions of attempting to eclipse this worldsoul. There is always a glimmer of hope. As far as what is stopping her, I would say, also us. We are part of that as well.
Fingers crossed we’re able to get all the way there. But yeah, there is for sure it’s not just a one and done, snap your fingers, and the worldsoul is claimed. That’s going to be a monumental task for Xal’atath, and we’re going to do our damned best to stop her.
Sean: I have a follow-up: you mentioned Eclipse, the logo. I love it. Trilogies typically have the second entry, like The Empire Strikes Back, where it’s a darker tone. Are we going to see Anduin in carbonite at the end of Eclipse?
Paul: (Chuckles) I will not confirm that specific question, whether Anduin will be locked in carbonite. But there are good story turns coming for sure. And not all of them are going to be that “we complete our mission.” You know, there are twists and turns along the way, so lots of things to look forward to, in Eclipse or beyond Eclipse. Maybe even in some of these chapters that land before Eclipse. You’re going to see a lot of moving pieces.
Seli: Throughout most of the Worldsoul Saga, we were always accompanied by famed heroes and champions who basically helped us along the way. Can you tell us, or maybe tease, who would be the people who will be joining us in our essentially final stand against Xal’atath?
Kim: Yeah, so we have lots and lots of people who are going to be helping us in our final stand against Xal’atath. Some of those are very spoiler-y. So I will not be getting into it. But to give you a little tease, so you can kind of maybe fill in some of the spoilers yourself… You know what we saw in that cinematic, during the opening ceremony, of Xal’atath entering the Mantle Vault — that big beam of Void Energy. You know a lot of people have been wondering what is that from? Last time we saw Xal’atath, she’s, you know, going down the dark hole with her army. Who else went down that dark hole? Who is missing?
You know, are those people that maybe we may have you know their fates answered. What happened to them? Are they dead? Are they alive? Are they okay? Are they going to help us out?
You know there are people who are unaccounted for who might be helping us out in the battle. Also, going down into the Mantle Vault: who is it who lives there? What is this place? Who made this? Is there anyone down there that we might actually meet along the way who can help us out, or who might try to stop us along the way as well?
You saw the awesome Deep Scar in the panel too… He had a Thraegar. Like, who are these guys? Are they going to help us out? Just lots of awesome stuff.
Sean: Exciting. That was the worst spoiler aversion ever.
Kim: I didn’t say anything. 🙂
Sean: (Chuckles) Yeah, you didn’t! That was great.
Squishei: Alright, so one of the biggest news I think, out of the deep dive panel, was the transmog changes. What led to the decision of unlocking transmog across all gear types?
Paul: Yeah, so this has been something that we were very excited to reveal for folks, despite it not actually landing right there in 12.2. This is going to come a little later in 12.2.5 afterwards. As we built transmog, we wanted to make sure that players maintain that sort of distinctive silhouettes, I think is how we’ve put it in the past. That you can identify someone who is a priest, mage, or warlock, because of the robes or the cloth that they wear. As we’ve gotten so many more transmog options in the game, in particular, there’s a lot of cosmetic sets which transcend, you know, plate, mail, cloth, and leather. And a number of those sets do have vibes which look very cloth-y, look fairly plate-y. There are already plenty of ways that players are sort of dodging those silhouette guidelines that they’ve been drawn inside of.
And so, in keeping with sort of philosophies that have driven the way that we’ve built Housing, which is just, “have fun, be creative, do the thing you want to do.” We’re going to give you all sorts of tools to be able to express yourself in the game. We wanted to bring that to transmog even further by saying like, “Hey, you know, if you think that it looks cool to throw some plate shoulders on your Warlock, because they match the colour, they just match your vibe, or you’re going for something frankly a little silly…” That’s great, have fun. 👏
Squishei: Awesome, I look forward to it a lot.
So are there any transmogs that can’t go across classes, you know, tier sets or things that are class-based?
Paul: Yeah, that’s a good question. So for clarity: the restriction we’re removing is armor type restrictions. So cloth, leather, mail, plate. We do still expect class armor, like a Paladin tier set, would be worn by Paladins. A Priest tier set would be worn by Priests. There will also be restrictions around weapons, specifically like if you’re not able to wield a specific weapon type, then no Warriors with wands and things like that.
Squishei: (Chuckle) That would look funny though.
Paul: Funny, yeah. But for 12.2.5 specifically, the thing that we’re looking forward to the most is just being able to mix-and-match those armor types.
Squishei: Makes sense. One last question on that set: WoW Forever announced some interesting transmog changes, where, it would drop for everybody. Could we see something like that come to retail WoW?
Paul: Never say never for features like this. You know, when we look at WoW Forever, there’s an enormous number of things that we look at. It’s like, that’s interesting for World of Warcraft. So we always rely on feedback from players in order to know like, hey, what’s going to land well, what’s not going to land well, and that informs future questions. So we’re going to take a look at how people play through Forever, how people play through Classic, how people play through any mode. Even like, we look over at Diablo and StarCraft and all these other games, and use that to inform the way that, you know, we build a game in the future. So, who knows?
Sean: I think I can speak for the entirety of the fan base and say that we love that idea of the transmog — everybody, unanimously, across the board. I’m confident with that statement.
You also mentioned StarCraft — how good was that StarCraft trailer?
Paul: Fantastic. I mean, I watched it for the first time, alongside all of you guys, and I was like… my wife was like (AUDIBLE GASP)… especially when she saw the twist at the end. The cinematic team continues to dominate. Really, really cool.
Sean: Chef’s kiss. Sorry, back on track.
I want to talk a little bit more about some of the additions we have coming. This one, paralleled in Warcraft III: Reforged, and we saw it in WoW Forever, we’re getting undead Paladins. Can you speak to a little bit about the decision to add undead Paladins and include the Darkspear and the Night Elves?
Paul: Yeah, for sure. I think I said this yesterday, this has always been the plan, right? We’ve been thinking about Forsaken Paladins for a while. Actually, when we talked about Void Elf Demon Hunters, there were questions saying like “Hey, why are Alliance getting a new race class combination, but the Horde aren’t?” And it’s like, “Well. Midnight’s going to take a little while, and there’s still more story to tell; we’ve got some stuff coming.”
And so, Forsaken Paladins specifically were something that we were thinking about, even as far as back then. And 12.2 was a time that made a lot of sense to do it as we’re heading into this battle of light versus void in the Mantle Vault.
As we looked at that, we sort of said, well, there’s a couple of other races which have felt like they’ve wanted Paladins as well. And so, we specifically heard a lot of feedback from people about Night Elves… Night Elf Paladins being something since back in Legion when they saw Delas Moonfang. Being able to be an NPC who is capable of wielding the light as a Paladin and a Night Elf. The players wanted to be able to do that. So we’re really happy to bring that.
We also had some really cool storytelling opportunities for the Darkspear to bring that as well. So we do get to round out Midnight with that balance of Horde versus Alliance in terms of new additions at the very least.
And each of these classes are also going to get, of course, their own charger mount, so there’ll be new chargers associated with them. You may have gotten to see some sneak peeks of those, the pillars off to the side, and stories that are going to tell how they become Paladins.
Kim: Yeah, all three of the races are going to have a little, you know, a questline that’s going to show you… Not to unlock it, but show you like, “This is a story of one particular member of this race, who has decided that they are going to pursue the path of a Paladin. What does that look like for them?” Obviously, you know, no race is going to be homogeneous. So this is the story of one specific person, and how did they come to it? Maybe if you’re a roleplayer, this might get the juices flowing a little bit. You might get some ideas or maybe you’re going to go in a totally different direction. But it’s kind of just showing you how it is. If you’re a person like, “Why would an undead ever do this?” This is going to give you a little bit more context on how it’s going to be.
Sean: I love it. You just broke news. That’s crazy.
Kim: (Chuckles) A very cool questline. I think you’re going to like them.
Sean: Alright, one more question about Forsaken Paladins. I don’t know if anybody else has it except for me, but the Forsaken guards in Zandalar at Zuldazar stand upright. They have excellent posture. Now that we’re getting Forsaken, who are infused with the light and able to wield the light as a weapon for the defense of their people and to fight the void, is there any chance that you could sneak in a little upright toggle on the character design?
Paul: (Chuckles) Never say never again to things like. Nothing to announce at this point, but yeah, I’ve heard requests for that as well. So it’s something we can bring back to the art team for sure.
Sean: So you also mentioned in the deep dive, the Calibration Chamber is coming, which I think is very cool. The design of which I love. Very Titan-y, very like, “you’re coming here to focus.” What kind of options can we expect to see in there? And will there be anything specific to Tanks for us to like, limit test, or Healers?
Paul: Yeah, so still a feature that’s under development. Contents may shift in flight. You should expect to be able to reset your cooldowns, which I think is one of the most important thing that we’ve heard from folks is like, “I just want to test my character. I’m not looking to abuse mechanics. I’m not looking to break the game. I just want to be able to reset a cooldown.” And frankly, there are a lot of ways you can reset cooldowns. How many times have you pulled a boss to the front of its room to reset the cooldown?
So like, we can do that fairly safely. Also raid buffs looking at ways that you can just give yourself all the raid buffs that you need, or even consumables, to test yourself in as close of simulation to what you might want for testing your throughput at any given time.
Beyond that, still a lot of moving pieces. We want to be able to support lots of different, sort of variations of different dummies. So different levels, different layouts, spread cleave versus clustered versus single-target, and things like that.
But the combat design team is sort of working through the details there, to make sure we have everything we want. I’ve heard the request for healers as well. And so, we’re still talking a lot about what exact options we might have available. At the end of the day, this is going to be built differently from Proving Grounds, the feature we saw in the past where there was… sort of, this is a progression of things and you have to get this far in order to be able to get into other types of content challenge modes. This isn’t that — this is just a tool. This is for testing alongside damage meters and other tools that you have available, like “Hey, I got this new trinket, I’ve got this new loadout I want to try, let’s do testing in a nice controlled environment.”
Sean: So with the introduction of the Lindormi affix, the Calibration Chambers, it feels like because there’s this sort of perception that there’s a lack of Tanks in this space… With the Calibration Chambers, where tanks can go in and have a chance to work through their tool kit, they have Lindormi’s affix to help them through. Is it like a concerted effort of the team to try to bolster the ranks of the tanks? And also by giving us another option with Forsaken Paladins?
Paul: I would say yes, but not just tanks specifically. I think a big effort of ours over the last several years has been trying to find places where there’s a lot of friction in terms of learning a new thing. Mythic+ is a great example, where there are plenty of folks who still see Mythic+ as like an inaccessible corner of the game because it feels competitive and difficult. Particularly tanking those is a huge challenge, right? As a tank, you need to not only know your rotation and be able to play up to the level of whatever plus you’re playing, but also like guide the whole group and not mess up with your percentage of completion. And so, Lindormi’s affix is a way of fighting against that.
But if you look at something like Training Grounds or Arenas as well, these are also ways where we’ve identified another portion of the game. PvP is something which feels inhospitable to new players because a lot of people who are in there have been playing for years, and are very happy to see you because they can farm you.
Sean: That’s me, I’m the farmer. 🧑🌾
Paul: Training Grounds: it gives players who are experiencing that unpleasant friction a way to unwrap themselves if they want to. Or just stick around in the Training Grounds if they want.
Seli: Okay, so let’s move on to the new zones. You mentioned that one of the factions in the Mantle Vault is led by the Niffen, who we were obviously previously allied with. So a lot of people might be happy that we finally get to dispatch the people who used to spam our mailboxes in the past. Obviously, they’re also wondering why we are suddenly at odds with them.
Kim: Yeah, I am so excited to talk about the Deep Scar, because they are just a strange little group down in the Mantle Vault. Without going super into detail about who they are, kind of the broad strokes of the Deep Scar is that they’re this group of like, motley crew of underground burrowing races who are kind of scavenging out this space. It’s got all these cool crystals and Titan stuff like “Ooh, shiny, gimme.” It’s not only Niffen, it’s also Drogbar, it’s Troggs, it’s vermin, it’s like all these nice classic underground races. And the Niffen are the smartest, so they’re the leaders even though they’re the littlest, which is just a great contrast.
These are not the Niffen that we met back in Loamm in Zaralek Cavern. This is a different group, like ones from a different region. So it won’t be like… you’re not fighting Elder Honeypelt. This is going to be a different group of Niffen who are leading a different group of these other underground races. So there are some great fights with the Niffen and the other members of the Deep Scar coming up, and it’s really exciting to just… Fight these little guys. I don’t believe we previously had any fightable.
Seli: I don’t think so either, but I’m looking forward to it for sure. Especially like you mentioned, they’re such a motley crew of different groups that ultimately come together for a mysterious goal.
So the Vaults of Ula’tek offer an ever-evolving, always-on world scenario. Could we see something like that again in the future, or maybe is something like this planned already for the Mantle Vault?
Kim: Yeah, that’s a good question. We’re always thinking about like, what is a good overlaying activity that you can do when you come to the zone. You log in, and you’re like, “Man, I really want to go to the Coiled Isle today. What is there for me to do there?” You should always have like an idea in your mind about what goal could be there for the day, for the week, or for the month for you, in that area. Just adds a little bit of flavour, something to do.
So definitely we do have an idea like that coming up in the Mantle Vault. Not specifically the same as the Vaults, you know, we always try to keep it a little fresh. You might have heard Paul talking a bit about the Radiant Screams, in the What’s New panel. Radiant Screams is kind of the feature of our zone. There’s other stuff you can do, of course, but this is the marquee piece.
The name might sound a little familiar: it’s kind of calling back to the Radiant Song of Azeroth. What does it mean for it to be a scream rather than a song? It’s metal now. She is very much fighting back against these dark machinations that Xal’atath is imposing upon her. And what does that mean in the zone?
What do we see actually being represented, as we’re seeing the zone change, respond, and react to that ongoing struggle?
Yes, it is very metal. There is going to be a lot of fighting and it’s just going to be a really fun, little activity. The details of it is still ongoing, but it should be very fun to test out when we hit PTR later this year.
Paul: I just wanted to add in: for outdoor features, the name of the game is variety. It would be great if, in the future, we have something which is always-on scenario. But if you know, patch after patch, we continue having always-on scenarios, then that starts to wear thin. And that’s not true of always-on scenarios; it can be true of something like Community Feast. It could be true of something which feels like an invasion event. We want to make sure you always have different variety. So mixing in different topologies of outdoor content is really important in making sure we feel fresh.
Squishei: So with the Mantle Vault, there’s something that we can usually expect in pretty much every new zone. You know, new treasures, Skyriding glyphs, maybe a world event… those kind of things. So what, in your opinion, separates the new zone in 12.2 with previous zones?
Kim: First off, you’ve seen the screenshots in the presentations earlier, on the Mantle Vault. They do not do the zone justice. When you see it for the first time, it looks nothing like any of these underground zones that we’ve had so far. We had, you know, Zaralek — almost the entirety of The War Within. It’s so different, very glowy with the Azerite everywhere. There’s void there… it’s just incredible. So just aesthetically, it already is going to feel different than any other zone that you’ve been in. It’s just this vast, amazing, ancient space.
In terms of other stuff we’re doing, we do have the sorts of things that players expect and want to see, like out of a zone. So we’re going to have, you know, quests, an incredible campaign, local stories, rares and treasures, all sorts of great routine activities that we all enjoy seeing and digging through. Also we do have a lot of little secrets that we’re putting in. Like little activities that we’re hoping will add some texture or variety to the things that you’re doing. So, you know, maybe you’ve done all the rares, you finished that achievement because you’re an achievement hunter. So what is something else that you could be doing?
Definitely, we have that all around. So I think the zone is going to feel and look just very different from what we’re doing. But at the same time, not so different that it doesn’t feel like Warcraft anymore.
Squishei: Awesome. Here’s a slightly different question: the community has been focusing on a certain image that looks like Sargeras’s sword just missed the Worldsoul. Can you confirm if this is what happened? And can we actually see this in-game?
Paul: (Chuckles) Yeah, I see the arrows… Yeah, I mean, that’s what that is. That’s a sword.
Squishei: Wow, it finally came back after last BlizzCon.
Paul: Yeah, eagle-eyed viewers have identified that. We have been thinking about the sword. It should become very apparent to people as you play through Eclipse that we have not forgotten about the sword. This is not something which is going away. Also, how you know, tragically close it came to the Worldsoul is, for sure, a testament to not only how close he came, but also maybe the power of the Worldsoul herself.
Squishei: Yeah, after so long, BfA, I think the ending of it, we finally get to see this wrapped up possibly. So I look forward to it.
Sean: Was he aiming for the heart? Or was he aiming for the prison? 👀
Anyway, let’s focus on Eclipse. Eclipse is taking us to Azeroth’s prison resting place for the first time. What kind of inspirations did the team draw from when designing this space?
Kim: Yeah, I mean. I don’t want to speak for the incredible work that the world-building team, the world art teams did. Definitely when you see it, it’s going to look like kind of these Titan spaces that we’ve seen before. You know, we’ve seen Titan spaces in Uldir; we’ve seen Ulduar. We kind of have that aesthetic that we’re used to. This kind of big, larger than life, classical-looking architecture. There’s going to be lots of that in the walls and the floors.
So that’s something that got drawn upon. When you enter the raid, you can actually see the Worldsoul in front of you as you saw in the screenshot… The incredible one with the arrows (laugh). They weren’t pointing directly to the Worldsoul, but you get the idea. Just the way the light is hitting everything — you can even notice it when you’re out in the zone. For example, some of the Azerite formations are all aligned towards that light, almost the same way as Hallowfall, where the flowers were aimed towards Beledar. This incredible symmetry of the Azerite and the void; this clash that feels like it’s thematic, of course, in the logo for Eclipse, the void and the light. Seeing it out in the zone, you know, the Azerite light and the void light, just always this clashing and mixing of those two elements I think really kind of thematically drove the zone and the raid all together.
Sean: I love it. When the team was designing the local stories for the zone, how much did that play like the presence of the Worldsoul? How much of an impact does that have on how you’re designing those stories?
Kim: I mean, no spoilers of course. I want everyone to play those little stories and see them all. Also because the way that we enter and are introduced to the zone… I think as soon as you get down there, you’ll get kind of this sense of like, I can see what types of stories this zone is going to tell.
That’s very ominous for now, and it’s on purpose. It actually is this really unique storytelling space that, I think I said multiple times throughout development, “we haven’t really had a zone like this before.” You’ll see what I mean in no time at all.
So local stories in this zone are going to feel a little different than ones that you’ve done in other zones, where you’re entering the Coiled Isle and meeting the Tuskarr who have some quests teaching you about themselves and the zone. The Mantle Vault is going to be different in terms of how we learn about it and how we interact with it.
The presence of the Worldsoul, and you know, of course, being there and the Azerite, it’s inevitable. That’s going to factor into the storyline, both local stories and the main campaign. But how exactly we interact with it, I’m so excited for people to see the angles we’ve taken.
Sean: Ominous interviews are ominous. Definitely leaves you nervous.
Midnight was full of fun Easter eggs for Void Elves, for Forsaken, Warlocks, and stuff as they walked through Silvermoon. Can we expect something similar for Earthen as they engage with the Thraegar?
Kim: I am an Earthen lover. I worked on the Isle of Dorn, so I definitely have a soft spot for Earthen. Anywhere that we’ve been able to see that makes sense, and feels flavourful and fun… You know, if someone’s playing an Earthen and they get a different line of dialogue, it’s like I see you. We see you. We acknowledge that you’re playing this, and that you’re going to have a different relationship to the zone around you, than you know, a human or Night Elf might.
So definitely looking for those opportunities, you know, where they are.
And really, not just for Earthen, just any time we are designing content in any zone, any city. We’re thinking about like, “Is there a time when a certain race or class might have a unique relationship to what’s going on here? Does it make sense, in this case, to maybe have a little bit of flavour for them?” And if so, we definitely try to support that when we can.
Sean: I can’t wait to see if the Thraegar and them are going to be friends, or if it’s a little more rocky. (Laughs)
Seli: So, last time we spoke to Paul, we asked about the Bonus Roll system and the expectations you and the team had by adding it to the Great Vault. And now that we’ve had a couple of weeks in Season 2, we’ve seen a lot of players have opted to pick a bonus roll week after week… instead of picking actual items from the Great Vault itself. Was that the expected outcome, or are there already adjustments you have in mind, or at least discussing within the team?
Paul: Yeah, looking at the actual percentage of players who are choosing Bonus Rolls versus actual gear or currency — you know, there are some people who, very early on, buy the currency to get the socket and things like that; vanishingly few, but people do it and continue later into the season — it’s been pretty close to what we’d expect. It’s pretty balanced, at least at the high-end. It’s more focused on gear for people who are on lower tiers of difficulty. But we’ve heard a lot of feedback from players that, in a lot of cases, there are players who felt like they would want to take something from the Vault, but they felt like the game was telling them, based on the way it works under the hood, that it’s better for them to take the Voidcore. And that’s sort of some uncomfortable tension.
Heard a lot of stories, myself included, we’re like… I sat on it for a day, because this is hard. I need to figure some stuff out before I decide if I need a future power or now power, whatnot.
And so, we’ve been looking at data, which changes as you go through a season, because early on, you really want to complete that 4-piece. That could push you more in a direction of wanting to take something directly from the Vault if it gets you closer to it.
Whereas later, it might not.
But I think the volume of that feedback, where you feel the tension at the beginning of the season, is for sure going to flavour our design as we move into the next season.
Maybe having bonus rolls so early in the Great Vault, you know, maybe we take a couple more weeks before we figure that out.
Nothing specific design yet. Still a lot of early design and discussion, but this is sort of where the head is at right now.
Seli: It’s always interesting to hear when like, the player feedback and telemetry data you’re getting kind of align and sometimes are at odds with one another. I think that’s always where the difficult decisions have to be made.
Paul: Yeah, for sure. I can confirm 99% of players are not taking their Bonus Rolls. There are still a lot of people taking loot from the Vault. It’s fun to take loot from the Vault, right?
Squishei: You mentioned the Season 3 dungeon rotation came out. You seemed to imply that Uldaman may not have 5 bosses. Are there any large changes that you can talk about the dungeons from a really wide scope right now?
Paul: I can’t off the dome. There should be a post out from yesterday that should have details on some of these. That post, I will confirm, does say there are four bosses, in that particular. So it’s going to be refreshed a little bit, so you won’t have the Lost Dwarves encounter, the Vikings. But that encounter, you won’t go through that as part of the Mythic+ rotation. You’ll have the other four.
Sean: (Whispers) That’s my favourite one. I’m sad.
Paul: (Chuckles) It is a fun one. But yeah, it made most sense for Mythic+. That’s something that you bypass.
Sean: What a rollercoaster of emotions this interview is.
Can you talk a bit about the decision to add a 5% reward and to make it and the 1% spec-specific?
Paul: Yeah, so continuing to extend cases where players can push their rating. We saw a lot of positive response to having the presence of a 1% reward. It might not feel like it, because it’s still the top 1%, but of accessibility right. That top 0.1% is very inaccessible by definition, majority of players, but still top 1%, it extends it by factor 10. We wanted to extend that a little bit more and get more people thinking about “how high can I push” or “how can I maximize my character,” especially once you get late in the season. This gives you a reason to want to keep playing or enjoy running dungeons with your friends or pick-up groups.
For the spec-specific decision, this comes down to making sure players feel that the game supports them in playing whatever class they want. Like when you get to the very high-end, players have sort of mapped things out and determined like “yeah, I might be able to get a certain amount of rating higher by choosing one DPS over another.” And for a lot of players, actually, that’s a satisfying way to play. I know of plenty of people who say “Ooh, I think I want to play Ele Shaman or Arcane Mage or Arms Warrior, whatever this season. Because I think I can do a little bit better.”
But for people who are more in that 1% or 5%, that can be a frustrating experience sometimes.
While you love playing your preferred Shadow Priest or whatnot, but if a meta has formed, that makes it hard for you to get into groups for that, then that might be a challenge.
So being rated against your own spec, encourages you to play what you want to play, play what you’re good at, as opposed to playing what you feel compelled to run, especially at that 1% or 5% run. So we’re really excited about it. There’s a lot of social dynamics that go into forming groups for Mythic+ as well. So it’s not as simple as just making these couple changes, but we’re really excited about the promise of these changes and we’re going to see how it goes.
Sean: I love it, I’m very excited. I think it’s a great change for exactly the reasons you mentioned, like people just feeling hard-stuck. They’re like “Oh, I can’t get invited because I love Shadow Priest” (we’ll pretend they’re not amazing). Are there any changes to the 0.1% spec or will that remain class-agnostic?
Paul: 0.1% will remain class-agnostic. It’s just the 1% and the 5% who are rated versus spec.
Sean: Okay. Is there any specific rewards or any broad rewards you can mention that we’re expecting from the 5% or is it just sort of like a “Hey, you did it. Here’s an achievement.”
Paul: You will get some rewards, but we’re not ready to talk about exactly what they are yet. But we’ll have more news once we get closer to PTR.
Squishei: So you mentioned a new legendary. We haven’t seen one for since Dragonflight. It’s been a long time. Are you able to share how this one is different than the Dragonflight ones in terms of addressing players concerns of acquisition and power?
Paul: We’re still working on through details of acquisition and power. So nothing specific to announce at this time. We listen to player feedback and whatnot. I can say in particular, we wanted to make sure that this felt like it was usable by a pretty broad group of folks, which is what led it to being, you know, a dagger versus a mace or a wand or something like that. You know, pretty much every caster, by the strictest definition of caster, will be able to wield this particular weapon. As far as fairness and acquisition goes, this is something that was important to us. But also, we think it’s really cool to have this be a weapon, which is not just like everybody has a specific one. It makes that you feel important as part of your raid group that you’re able to get this particular weapon and work towards it. So beyond that though.
Kim: Perceptive players may have noticed, you know, Devourer Demon Hunters can wield daggers as of Patch 12.1.
Seli: Awesome. So moving on to lairs. Having the Lair bosses be available on the Mythic difficulty, especially Mythic Flex difficulty, obviously makes it very easy for aspiring Mythic guilds or maybe AOTC guilds to kind of push themselves a little bit more without having to tackle like an 8-boss raid themselves. But sadly, both Sporefall and Nymrissa have kind of, I would say, missed the mark a little bit in terms of like the feeling like an early Mythic boss, which I think you mentioned in our last interview, like that was kind of like the goal.
So the question would ultimately be where do you intend the lair boss, or has it changed where you want the lair bosses to land going forward, especially with the one that we’re going to be seeing in the next patch.
Paul: Yeah, I would say the target for the next patch is to still shoot for something which is close to the beginning of the main raid. So a boss one, two, maybe a boss three or something like that. When you’re looking at Mythic Flex, one of the best things about Mythic Flex (and reason of I think a lot of people get excited about it) is because there are a lot of people out there who are pushing AOTC. There’s a lot of people there who have guilds who are able to get to that, you know, final boss on Heroic. And then, maybe have the wherewithal and the desire to push harder but just don’t have the makeup for it. That specific 20-player group makes it really hard for them. And so, just offering that little bit of flex from 15 to 25 can bring a lot more people in. But if I think as with the case particularly for the first week or two for Nymrissa Wavecaller, that feels too difficult to be able to jump into, then that can be a challenge.
Now, luckily, not a lot of people were challenging Nymrissa in the first week or two of this season, especially those AOTC guilds whose goal is AOTC. So they didn’t end up running into that. We did see some of the World First people running into that and there’s been some tuning passes to get her closer in line with where we’d expect her to be. But I’d say looking forward, that’s still sort of the idea is, when you’re looking at taking down Noctinax, this should be something which should feel like it’s in range for an AOTC guild, who wants to push themselves a little farther as opposed to being a huge leap ahead of it.
Seli: Yeah. Speaking of Noctinax, how does he tie into the overall world that he finds himself in ultimately?
Kim: Have you shown him the model of him?
This massive Stone Azerite bat. Like what else does he need to be introduced? Giant Azerite bat. So I mean, his story is not, you know, too fancy really. You know, he’s a giant Azerite bat who’s made a nest in this lair called the Gear Hold (?) and we’re going to make sure he doesn’t cause any more trouble. So really, he’s made out of Azerite, so in some ways, players who remember Azerite from older expansions, BfA, Azerite quite literally is like the blood, the pain, the scar tissue of Azeroth in a lot of ways. And so, when Azerite is infusing an elemental, it’s not just pretty crystals that are on it. But it actually is, in some ways, kind of feeding her emotions through them. So if she’s in pain, if she’s enraged, you know, if you remember Magni calling out to us, you know, she is in pain, come seal the wounds. (I’m not going to say it in the accent.)
Sean: I’m going to need you to say it in the accent.
Kim: I’ll leave that to someone else, but maybe you can do it for me later. 🙂
Definitely when the Azerite is infusing this bat, it is infusing some of that pain, that rage. You know, she’s raging against the dying of the light. It’s infusing this bat, making it act out in ways that it might not necessarily know throughout however long it’s been down there. So that is part of what is tying it into the zone, you know, seeing how Azerite is affecting the creatures out here.
Sean: That’s cool. So Azerite being connected to Azeroth and we’re feeling, she’s feeling, is there any feedback? Is there any way for us through infusion of Azerite to like, the way we’re feeling, the way we are to give our energy to her to help her? Or is it just a one-way street?
Kim: That’s a good question. I don’t have anything specific to share right now, but definitely how we are going to be seeing it for the majority of the zone. Is it kind of representing the emotional state of Azeroth? And we are going to have some moments where we’re able to kind of intuit it how exactly she’s doing by kind of seeing how Azerite is acting or reacting around us.
Paul: I can say, without specifics, there’s going to be a really cool way in 12.2 that you infuse yourself with Azerite. Well, you’ll learn more about later, but yes. Azerite’s going to play into the way that your character plays.
Kim: (Chuckles) Very sneaky.
Squishei: So if I take my Heart of Azeroth from BfA, does that do anything? 👀
Sean: Wait, you still have yours?
Squishei: Yeah, at least I think.
So one last question about the lair then. What lessons did you learn from the Nymrissa lair? Could we see bigger changes to Mythic Flex difficulty as a testing ground? Such as a lower player count or changes to mechanics, or anything like that?
Paul: We learned plenty of lessons for sure. I think one of the bigger ones was that those early tuning challenges that we talked about earlier. If we want to make sure that we like hit the mark in terms of hitting that first three bosses of the main raid difficulty. Beyond that, a lot of it’s been working as expected. You know, we’ve been really happy to see people just be able to walk in the front door and just receive a raid group to fight this boss. Which is really not all that different from how we used to get groups for world bosses. You just click the green eye and then be auto-accepted usually to a group pretty quickly. But just fewer clicks, fewer messing around, just going front door, I’d say. Maybe we won’t make the next one underwater?
As another lesson. It’s cool to be underwater, but sometimes those 17 seconds of swimming is 15 too much.
Squishei: Yeah, or the drowning corpse outside.
Sean: There’s bubbles right there!
Kim: I might have AFK’d and drowned at this one.
Sean: But if you played as a Forsaken… 👀 No drowning.
Squishei: Alright. One question about Wrath Remix: so why did you pick Wrath for that? Many players have suggested Shadowlands as a top pick possibly for the rewards, but how do you balance taking into account, the rewards that people want versus what might be fun to play or somewhere that you want to tell the story of again?
Paul: Yeah, there’s just a lot of sort of thematic resonance with where the story’s going to be at in that 12.2.7 time frame. As we’re heading towards the Last Titan, we’re going to heading into Northrend. It’ll be really cool to have that sort of swan song of Northrend happen ahead of time of the Wrath of the Lich King as we play through it in Remix. So that factored in for sure. Also, we only really just teased Wrath Remix specifically. There’s a lot of really cool ideas coming for Wrath Remix that we haven’t shared yet, that we’ll have more details about as we get closer to that 12.2.7 time frame and PTR for that. You’ll be able to see like, why and how we think that’s cool.
Seli: Definitely looking forward to that.
Before we even get to Eclipse though, there is still this one pesky creature that we have to dispatch with Kit’hix obviously having slumbered underneath Ula’tek’s lair. So what do you aim for in terms of like raid difficulty there? Because we already had Sporefall as a little bit on the more accessible and easier side. Kit’hix obviously, as a story boss, there is a bit of expectation that he’s going to provide more of a challenge, but where do you envision that to land, roughly?
Paul: I would say, it shouldn’t be a pushover. For a lot of guilds, it will be a pushover. There’s not going to be a Race to World First for Kit’hix, right? I think it would be very difficult to do so, just because of 7 or 8 weeks of season so far ahead of time that like, you’re going to have a lot of gear disparity among people. So to be able to tune for a Race to World First, in that case, is probably not worth the effort. But somewhere in the middle of the raid tier in terms of difficulty is, I think, where you’ll land.
Won’t be harder than The Coiled Altar and Ula’tek. So if that gives you a rough idea.
Of course, this is going to be part of the story. So you’ll also be able to enjoy a story mode version of this as you play through it. If you’re not even interested in hopping into a LFR or normal Heroic, hopping in and being able to absorb the story, you can do that from a story mode perspective.
Squishei: Real quick, you mentioned story mode. Are you happy with story mode releasing one week after? Will that continue going forward in Season 3?
Paul: This is something we talk about a lot internally. For Season 3, that’s still the plan, but we still listen to player feedback and want to make sure that we’re balancing the desire to be able to hear story as soon as possible. Especially if you are someone who prefers to play story mode. With the incentive to, if you are someone who prefers to play in a normal or Heroic raid, there is a cool moment when you get to experience story together as a group and feel like you’ve accomplished it together. Having an incentive to hop in and do a quick story mode before you play it with your friends, can rob players from that so. But it’s still something we continue to discuss. Nothing is set in stone here.
Sean: You guys have both been doing interviews all week long. You’ve been talking all week long. Let’s start with you, Kim: is there anything that an interviewer hasn’t asked you, or that you really want to talk about that you haven’t had a chance to talk about?
Kim: Well, you asked me a lot about Astalor already… and I just wanted to talk about Astalor.
I guess something related to Astalor that I’ve wanted to bring up is, of course, Prey is continuing into Season 3. As you saw in the What’s Next panel, we’re going to be having that incredible Agony Mode, which is very aptly named. I just want to draw attention to the fact that is going to be so cool to do.
If you are looking for challenge, if you’re looking for punishment, Agony Mode is for you. It’s going to be so fun.
And then, Prey itself, as we saw going from Season 1 to Season 2, a refresh on the affixes, a refresh on some of the targets. We’re going to be seeing that continuing into Season 3 as well. So if you’re a person who enjoys Prey, you want to see more of that. There’s not only going to be additional refreshed content in Season 3 for Prey, but also that deeper level going into Agony Mode. And then, of course, more of those fun little story quests like we got for Astalor in Season 1 and 2, coming a bit more of those in Season 3 of course, culminating in that Nemesis boss.
Sean: I love it. Can you put to bed the rumours that he’s Sire Denathrius in disguise, please?
(Big laughter)
Kim: I think Astalor would like me to make no comment. (Laughs)
Sean: Alright. Paul, same to you. What are people not asking you that you wish you could talk about?
Paul: I haven’t got a lot of questions about the raid. There is a banger of a raid at the end of this season, at the end of the zone, at the end of this expansion. We’re taking on Xal’atath! Like Xal’atath is Boss 8! And there’s also so many just like, really cool thematic encounters along the way. Boss 7 is also going to be a really big story moment as well. Just the encounter team and the dungeon art team, who makes these spaces, have been like working on this with such painstaking accuracy for so long. Making sure that the Worldsoul herself, right in the center of that space, is always sort of commanding your attention. That, as you press through, you’re fighting through varied fights that there some really interesting encounters. We talked about the big boy jellyfish, but it’s not just a big boy jellyfish.
There’s a bunch of cool stuff too. And then that ultimate fight versus Xal’atath has some really cool things that happen in the middle of it that I think, I can’t wait for people to see it. I can’t wait for people to beat it. That raid, keep an eye out for that as well.
Sean: That makes sense. On a scale of Hogger to Dimensius, how big — no shame to Hogger — can we expect the Xal’atath fight to be?
Paul: Oh, closer to Dimensius than Hogger. 👍
Sean: Good news! Bad news for the Race to World First people, but good news for the rest of us!
We’re just about out of time, but one last quick one: what are you most excited about coming up in WoW?
Kim: Wow, I mean. Can I just say Eclipse? Is that a cheating answer?
I’m just so excited for people to see the zone. I mean, the team has poured an incredible amount of love into this zone and into the campaign. There’s so many twists and turns at the end of the campaign. Even when you get into the start of it, you will not be ready for the end of it. Just so excited for people to experience that great story content.
Sean: Awesome. And Paul?
Paul: I love Delves. I’m going to love hopping into Delves for next season, but like. I’ve been working on Midnight for a long time. I know everything about Midnight. What I am particularly excited about are the implications of that big old robot thing hanging out behind Wyrmrest that had his sights aimed at us and being able to explore that as a player is something that I’m tremendously excited about.
Sean: Do you internally call it the Iron Giant? Or is that just me? 😳
Paul: (Chuckles) We have our own names for it.
Sean: Perfect. On behalf of all of us, Raider.IO, Wowhead, Icy Veins, all of the fans, everybody at BlizzCon, everybody at home, thank you so much for all of the work that you do. Thank you for taking the time to sit down with us today and I can’t wait to see you in Azeroth soon.